Greeneville Visit, April 12-13, 2015

(John Clinard, April 15, 2015)

You Can Never Go Home… but you can go back for a visit. This would be about our 50^th visit to Greeneville in the last 50 years, and none has been finer.  This was an occasion to remember because of the company that we (John and Lil Austin Clinard) enjoyed in our group. There was Tom Morgan, our friend and relative of Gen. John Hunt Morgan, Carolyn Rosen, a Tellico Village friend and companion of Tom, and Richard Lyon Austin, Lil’s first cousin who has become my history partner. The reason/excuse for the visit was to explore Greeneville, its history, and the particular history of John Hunt Morgan and his family with a focus on his death in Greeneville. Confederate Gen. Morgan was killed there in 1864 during the Civil War. He had spent his last night at the Dickson-Williams Mansion, corner of Church and Irish Streets, one block up the hill from the Episcopal and Cumberland Presbyterian (CP) Churches.  Gen. Morgan was connected to the Williams family of Greeneville.

Now all the irony and complexity of our own personal histories in Greeneville begins to kick in. Here are just a few starter facts:

John, Lil and Richard grew up in Greeneville attending the schools and churches we would revisit on this trip. All three of us eventually left Greeneville, returning many-many times since our HS graduations of the period 1964 (John), 1965 (Lil) to 1967 (Richard). Lil and I were HS sweethearts, in a romance interrupted by her family’s moving to FLA before her HS Junior year. Our love was not to be denied as we recombined at UT in Knoxville in 1966 and married in Greeneville in 1968 at Lil’s Church with my father officiating.

My father, Turner Clinard, was Minister of the Greeneville CP Church for 13 years (1952-1965).

Lil’s and Richard’s fathers, brothers Frank and Tom Austin, were important business men in Greeneville, working with another brother Robert and with their father Clyde Bernard Austin in the family tobacco business, Austin Leaf Tobacco Company.

John and Richard studied history in Greeneville High School under Richard Harrison (Dick) Doughty, the man who would later be personally responsible for the restoration of the Dickson-Williams Mansion. Dick Doughty was an historian, writer, teacher, and antique collector, and along with his brother and sisters (Bill, Nancy and Kit) Dick was a member and patron of the CP Church. He sang in the choir with my mother Dot Clinard. Often Lil’s great aunt Maime Bitner would play the fine old pipe organ during the CP services while Dot and Dick sang. I also sang along as best I could. Lil attended the First Presbyterian Church just across the street and up ½-block from the CP Church, both Churches on Main Street.

Cousin Richard Austin lived across the street from Lil Austin on N. Main. I lived around the corner in the CP Church manse on Montford Ave.  All of us had siblings, and we all knew each other quite well. Next door to Richard: on one side was the home of grandfather Clyde B. Austin; on the other side was the home of Richard Harrison Doughty and his three siblings. Only one of the four, Kit Doughty Hickerson, ever married.

Cousin Richard Austin was a member of the Episcopal Church for many years. Richard also worked at the Austin Tobacco Company for many years, and he was a history teacher at Dobyns-Bennett High School in Kingsport for many more years. I don’t need to give our actual ages, but we are no longer spring chicks, and most of the individuals we will talk about here have passed… many buried in Greeneville. On our 1^st afternoon in Greeneville we visited three cemeteries: Andrew Johnson National where Lil’s dad is buried; Shiloh in Tusculum where my dad is buried; and Oak Grove where Lil’s mom and Dick’s mom and dad are buried.

But many ironies remain that must be explained. When Turner Clinard was Minister at the CP Church, the family of Beverly Randolph Williams and wife Frances Lyle with sons Beverly Lyle and William Dickson Williams joined the CP Church and became quite active supporters and members. Beverly Randolph Williams was the great-grandson of Dr. Alexander Williams and wife Catherine Dickson. Though the fact was not known to me until recently, Catherine Dickson’s father, William Dickson, built the Dickson-Williams Mansion for her as an 1822 wedding present.  Small world… you bet!

Son William Dickson Williams (Dick Williams) played HS basketball with me. Dick was a football star athlete who would attend UT in Knoxville graduating one year after me and in the same class as Lil. Dick Williams and I would become members of the same fraternity (Sigma Chi); and it was my honor as Consul of Sigma Chi to initiate Dick. Beverly Lyle Williams, Dick’s older brother, transferred from Clemson to UTK when Dick became a UT football scholarship player. Dick Williams and his wife Susan Richardson now live in Knoxville in Gettysvue Golf & Polo Club where Lil and I were members for about 10 years. Susan Williams was a TVA Board Member and past President of the East TN History Society.  Beverly Lyle married Wilhelmina Clemmer, daughter of our Greeneville HS Principal. Beverly worked in the dairy industry outside TN for many years before retiring to Chucky in Greene Co.  Now Beverly and Wilhelmina are genealogists and history gurus and tour guides for “Main Street Greeneville”. Guess what?  They both lead tours of downtown Greeneville with specific attention to the Dickson-Williams Mansion. It makes good sense to me.

But another great irony that I have yet to mention is that my Tellico Village golf buddy, Tom Morgan, who spent most of his working years in CA announced to me one day a while ago that he was related to Gen. John Hunt Morgan. “Really?” I said. “Really!” he said. This of course set up the necessity of a Greeneville visit with housing at the General Morgan Inn (formerly the Brumley Hotel) a fine hotel and restaurant just down the hill from the Dickson-Williams Mansion where Gen. Morgan was to spend his last night alive in 1864 and the Inn’s being across the street from the First Presbyterian Church where Lil and I were married in 1968. It was an obvious trip from Tellico Village for the four of us, Tom and Carolyn, and Lil and John.

Only when I, also a “genealogists”, started to do a little homework before the trip did I realize that Tom Morgan was indeed related to Gen. Morgan. Only after a discovery telephone conversation with friend Dick Williams did I learn that Beverly and Wilhelmina Williams were Greeneville tour guides and our obvious choice for help. Gen. Morgan was closely acquainted with the Williams family. I needed to discover just how this was. Beverly would know.

Richard Harrison Doughty, the man who taught us history, who attended the CP Church under my father, and who was instrumental in restoring the Dickson-Williams Mansion had also written a book about Greeneville, 100 year Portrait (1775-1875). Funny that Lil & I could find neither of our two copies of Doughty’s book in order to do our homework, and we had to quickly purchase yet a 3^rd copy on the internet.  There were many accounts of Gen. Morgan’s death, and no two agreed.  When we finally received and read Doughty’s book we discovered he had more than three accounts of his own.  He took each cum grano salis (with a grain of salt) finishing his Morgan story with words of wisdom that the reader would have to decide for him/herself. My favorite account was that Lucy Rumbough Williams, wife of Joseph A. Williams, another child of Dr. Alexander Williams, and the great-granduncle of Beverly Lyle Williams our tour guide to be, was the betrayer of Gen. Morgan. Lucy had connections to the North, and did not care for Morgan. And, not to be eclipsed, Dick Austin came up with an account that involved a woman jilted by Gen. Morgan who then used Capt. Robert Carter, Lil’s and Dick Austin’s 2^nd great-grandfather, who lived on the Rogersville Road near Greeneville, to alert Gen. Gilliam, leader of the Federal troops in Bull’s Gap, 18 miles away, that Morgan lay almost unprotected at the Dickson-Williams Mansion in Greeneville. There was treachery at hand, no matter which account was to be believed. Morgan, a CSA General and hero of earlier battles, would be a wonderful prize for the Northern troops, no matter if captured or killed. Certainly all accounts end with his death just yards down the hill in the front yard of the Dickson-Williams Mansion. The day was September 4, 1864. The place of his death was just out back of today’s General Morgan Inn where we five visitors to Greeneville (John, Lil, Tom, Carolyn and Dick) were comfortably enjoying the accommodations of the Inn and the wonderful food of the Brumley Restaurant. We refused to allow Morgan’s murder/demise to be a downer to our wonderful visit to Greeneville.

When we visit the General Morgan Inn and Brumley Restaurant we always run into a few people that we know well. The first person we saw there for Sunday brunch was Sam Miller, Greeneville businessman, my fraternity brother and older brother of Dan Miller who was in our wedding. For lunch on Monday we ran into Gregg Jones, Publisher of the Greeneville Sun and very good friend of Dick Austin.

But, onward to our two Monday tours, the 1^st being the morning City Walking Tour for the five visitors.  It was very difficult for Dick Austin and me to hold our tongues during this walk through familiar times and familiar territory. Lil, too, knew way too much to stay totally silent. In addition, while walking through Greeneville we kept running into old acquaintances and friends. All this probably worked against tour guide Beverly Lyle’s intended storyline based on facts and history. The three of us, Dick, Lil and I, wanted to share personal experiences, and so we did. The walk took us to the Doughty-Stevens Furniture Store, the CP (Canon Ball) Church, the Big Springs (Richland Creek), Roby School (“We are very proud of You”), Greeneville Town Hall, Old Harmony Cemetery of the Presbyterian Church, Andrew Johnson’s Tailor Shop, Town Jail, Town Courthouse where there are monuments to both the Northern and the Confederate Soldiers, early Post Office, law offices of Main Street, the Capital Theater, old stores of Main and Depot, and back to the General Morgan Inn. On the walk we encountered both Bill Hickerson, banker, nephew of Dick Doughty and my fraternity brother, and Kidwell King, Greeneville lawyer and my fraternity brother… plus others. It is a small town and literally impossible to remain unseen or anonymous. I’m sure that Tom Morgan and Carolyn Rosen have much to add… but I don’t have room here since I’m verbose like Dick Doughty.

Now to the afternoon tour of the Mansion with both Beverly and Wilhelmina as guides. What a gorgeous restored home!  It is a tribute to Richard Harrison Doughty as well as to all those who gave/give money, furniture, time and support. It makes Greeneville a proud town. There is too much for me to cover. I’m simply happy to have been included in the tour. All five of us found it fascinating. What a great job by both Beverly and Wilhelmina. Greeneville is certainly full of history; and the Dickson-Williams Mansion may be the centroid of that history.

It is sad that Gen. Morgan had to die there in 1864, but he was a soldier, and he died as a soldier.  It’s interesting to note that John Hunt Morgan’s final resting place, Lexington KY, was his home and that of his grandfather and Lexington founder, John Wesley Hunt.

Again, I wish to thank Beverly and Wilhelmina for their help and hospitality. I also want to thank Dick Austin for contributing so much information from his vast stores of Greeneville history.

In closing I wish to quote Dick Doughty: “Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story”.  Greeneville TN is full of good stories.

New Melungeon Notes

NEW MELUNGEON NOTES 

(John Clinard, March 2015)

INTRODUCTION

The notion that the E1b1a Austin Clan (not the Austin-Riggs family of my wife) produced some Melungeon descendants or that the Clan was in some way aligned with, or married into the recognized Melungeon families such as Collins, Goins, Gibson, Riddle etc. was fostered by the researcher Charles E Austin. My first encounter with Charles was more than 10 years ago. He contacted me by telephone. By the time of 2004 I had a very extensive database posted on RootsWEB which included all the studies I had posted about my wife’s Austin family (or, at least what I thought at the time was my wife’s family). Charles saw it and discovered (I don’t know how.) that I lived in Knoxville not too far from his home in Ooltewah, near Chattanooga. In our conversations he tried to convince me that I should have the Y-DNA of my wife’s father, brother or cousins checked. He was thrilled by his own recent Y-DNA results that showed him to be of the E1b1a haplogroup. He talked on about Portuguese sailors and Melungeons of Hancock Co. TN.  To tell you the truth, I though this man must be a “kook”.  So I catalogued Charles’ ideas but did nothing about DNA, a subject that was mostly unknown to me. The science of genetic genealogy was very new to almost everyone. But this was not the end of my interest in Charles and his ideas.

Later after several more years of research I reached the point where it became apparent that I could prove through DNA that my wife’s 3^rd great-grandfather, Archibald Austin (b. 1767), bastard son of Wealthy Pruett, was truly a son of Joseph Austin (b. 1730), son of John Sr. I had become very familiar with the AFAOA database which contained a wealth of information on Southern Austins collected by Janet Austin Curtis (d. 1991) and others, including more recently the work of Charles E Austin (I was surprised about Charles.). To make a long story short, the Y-DNA of my wife’s cousins proved that Archibald was not a son of Joseph Austin, but rather of Edward Riggs. This caused my wife’s cousin and me a bit of concern, but it drove me to deeper research resulting in an historic-fictional short story about Wealthy Pruett which is crammed full of as much genealogical data as was available.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfh4m1w7nyxacos/THE%20MAIN%20STORY%20rev%206%20new.pdf?dl=0

This is long; so unless you wish to wait a minute to download, read it at a later date.

Well, Charles was starting to fade rapidly with his alzheimer's disease.  But much of his work is recorded in the AFAOA as well as elsewhere on the WEB. Supposedly the bulk of his data was donated to the Saponi Town group which is on the WEB at: http://www.saponitown.com/. Other sites include

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/a/u/s/Charles-E-Austin/index.html

And Charles’ interactions with other researchers can be found on a variety of message boards such as

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BLEVINS/2006-10/1161139318

Charles was very busy “preaching” the Melungeon line of his families… particularly Austin and Blevins.

In my story of Wealthy Pruett, I included an appendix that discusses the Melungeon possibilities. Though it is now a bit dated, I’ll still share it with you on my dropbox.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gmweqtnweewwbn/APPENDIX%20O.pdf?dl=0

You will find a closing that was supplied by a famous man who sought to find his roots…

"In all of us there is a hunger, marrow-deep, to know our heritage, to know who we are and where we have come from. Without this enriching knowledge, there is a hollow yearning. No matter what our attainments in life, there is still a vacuum, an emptiness, and the most disquieting loneliness. "

—Alex Haley

TODAY

In the AFAOA database we can find:

http://www.afaoa.org/db_files/Thomas_Austin_VA/Individuals/I213.html

INDIAN ANCESTRY:" John, Jr identified himself as a Saponi at a court hearing in Surry County. Valentine was also identified as an Indian at a court hearing in Surry County. Later, it was discovered the Richard (son) and Joseph were identified by the state of Virginia as Melungeons (Not of pure European blood). Since four of the five known children have been identified as "mixed blood" it is felt that there was only one mother for all the known children." Charles Edwin Austin

Today after more research I must say that I’m even less sure of what a Melungeon really was/is. The word “Melungeon” did not exist until ~1810, later than this AFAOA reference. A word that did exist at the time of these court records was Mulatto.  That may well have been used… but not Melungeon.

But I have uncovered interactions and marriages between the E1b1a Austin Clan and what is generally agreed upon as the core Melungeon families, in particular the related families that became isolated to the area of Newman Ridge in today’s Hancock Co. TN. It has been an up-and-down battle to extract the “truth” from among a general pile of data some of which is no doubt garbage data. But I have also read a number of good books that ring of truth on the subject.

To start, I’ll share just a couple of family trees that illustrate how the E1b1a Austin lines cross into the Melungeon family space. The 1^st tree can be found on my RootsWEB database at:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=clinardja&id=I41996&style=TEXT 

Here we see the connections to the Riddle family and the Riddle family’s connection to the Collins family.

I have also illustrated the possibility that both the Riddle and Collins families arrived in VA as indentured servants to well-known men such as Abraham Wood and George Eaton. Abraham Wood (b. 1614) is famous as an explorer on the early VA frontier and was one of the first to reach the area of the Upper New River. His son Thomas held the indenture of Henry Collins (b. ~1670), grandfather of Vardy Collins. If you Google “Vardy Collins” you can spend the rest of the day reading about Melungeon families. It has been reported that John Austin (Jr.) traveled with Vardy Collins's father to Grayson County, VA. The year was 1757. Vardy was not born until 1764; but John Jr. had small children including son Stephen who was 2 years old in 1757.

Moses Riddle (b. ~1724) is acknowledged to be NA by none other than Maud Carter Clement in her book The History of Pittsylvania Co. VA. What is impressive is that Moses is the “only” NA citizen of Pittsylvania in 1767 mentioned in her book. She notes a few Mulattoes and a very large number of Negroes, since that was the way the tithe lists noted these men (and sometimes women). Maude bid farewell to the NA/Saponi with a nice gesture: “Thus passed from VA this noble tribe of red men, leaving to us who have succeeded to their domain but a faint outline of their tragic story.”  Do you suppose she had no inkling of the many interracial marriages involving those soles of Pittsylvania Co. VA who occur on the tithe lists?

The 2^nd tree can be found on my RootsWEB database at:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=clinardja&id=I62845&style=TEXT

Above is part of the Austin-Goins tree. The ancestral link is to William Austin and wife Rebecca Moses. William is in the AFAOA at: http://www.afaoa.org/db_files/Thomas_Austin_VA/Individuals/I1313.html

I have written up this connection and the file is also in my dropbox:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bzsq1wy2jizp13o/AUSTIN%20%20GOINS%20%20CONNECTION.pdf?dl=0

I particularly like this line because it connects many of my personal family lines such as Cherokee families Fields, Emory and Grant. Sula Bonnie Austin’s family migrated from TN to AR to OK. These look like voluntary migrations; yet they ended up in the area of the Cherokee Reservation in OK, probably to reunite with other Cherokee family members.

GOING… GOING… GONE 

Assimilation is the natural means by which the Red and Black members of the Melungeon people started to disappear.  Ad-mixing with whites over multiple generations has eliminated most traces of autosomal-DNA that might prove particular connections of the Melungeons to Red and Black ancestors.  Few, if any, Melungeons males carry the Y-DNA of Native American men; and few Melungeon women carry the mt-DNA of Native American women. Those lines can only have disappeared due to lack of continuous propagation… that is, the lines died out.

But NAs have disappeared by other means. Let’s not forget Walter Ashby Plecker (1861-1947) and the Racial Integrity Act of 1924. Plecker in particular resented Negroes who passed as Indians, and came to firmly believe that the state's Native American had been "mongrelized" with its African American population. In fact, since shortly after the Civil War, Native Americans from all over the country had been brought to the Hampton area to be educated with blacks, and some had married, although that Indian school had closed as racial discrimination against Indians and this eugenics movement grew. Plecker refused to recognize that many mixed-race Virginian Indians had maintained their culture and identity as Indians over the centuries despite economic assimilation. Plecker ordered state agencies to reclassify most citizens who claimed American Indian identity as "colored," although many Virginia Indians had continued in their tribal practices and communities. Church records, for instance, continued to identify them as Indians. Specifically, Plecker ordered state agencies to reclassify certain families whom he identified by surname, as he had decided they were trying to pass and evade segregation. This remained legal in the South until federal legislation in the 1960s.

In addition, Plecker lobbied the US Census Bureau to drop the category of "mulatto" in the 1930 and later censuses. This deprived mixed-race people of recognition of their identity and contributed to a binary culture of hypodescent, in which mixed-race persons were often classified as the group with lower social status. Not until the 21st century did the census allow individuals to indicate more than one race or ethnic group in self-identification.

Then there is the work of the genealogist Paul Heinegg. His award winning research is included in Virginia, North Carolina and South Carolina (Mixed Blood Families). It can be found on the WEB at

http://www.freeafricanamericans.com/ or you can find a PDF copy in my dropbox at

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eontec502xtewr6/PaulHeineggBook.pdf?dl=0

Paul documented the Negro bloodline of many of the families that eventually ended up being called Melungeon. Some say he changed Red to Black. His work encompassed much more, however. For his research he has earned the scorn of several participants in the Melungeon DNA Project. This project is described on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melungeon_DNA_Project

Have a look at this U-Tube presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpWChf4qlWY

It will give you a bad feeling about the “war” going on between different factions over the subject of Melungeon heritage.  It is a war that I intend to completely avoid. I have already been “burned” once for trying to offer suggestions to the Saponi Descendants Association & Free Native American Indians led by Scott Preston Collins. It’s a long story.

Let me suggest one additional Blog Site that seems balanced: http://youhavetobethistalltogoonthisride.blogspot.com/2012/06/melungeon-ydna-study-findings-vardy.html

And another WEB-based article/Blog by Joanne Pezzullo, a woman who chairs several of the Native American and Melungeon DNA studies that can be found under Family Tree DNA.

http://the-melungeons.blogspot.com/2012/09/goins-going-gone.html

Natural elimination through law - The ways the laws of racial discrimination have been written and enforced throughout the history of the British American Colonies and throughout the history of the USA have certainly contributed to the “diminishment” of races other than Caucasian. We have been, and continue to be a racially biased Nation. In order to survive or simply just to get ahead many Red and Black people have been driven to become White.  I wish this were not true, but it is. I have to admit it’s getting better… it’s getting better all the time… as the Beatles have written.

Wikipedia has a very good synopsis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melungeon looking at laws of the past. An early law/decree was from the state of TN and may well have been a good reason for mixed-breeds to become TN citizens because being a free person (of color) gave one the rights of any other free person, even an Anglo-Saxon Caucasian.

“Persons that are known and recognized by the Constitution and laws of Tennessee, as free persons of color are those who by the act of 1794 section 32 are taken and deemed to be capable in law to be certified in any case what is in, except against each other or in the language of the statute "all Negroes, Indians, Mulattoes, and all persons of mixed blood descended from Negro or Indian ancestors to the third generation inclusive though one ancestor of each generation may have been a white person, white bond or free." ... That if the great grandfather of Plaintiff was an Indian or Negro and he is descended on the mother's side from a white woman, without any further Negro or Indian blood than such as he derived on the father's side, then the Plaintiff is not of mix blood, or within the third generation inclusive; in other words that if the Plaintiff has not in his veins more than 1/8 of Negro or Indian blood, he is a citizen of this state and it would be slanderous to call him a Negro.”

There is another meaningful statement about law and race.

“Law was involved not only in recognizing race, but in creating it; the state itself helped make people white. In allowing men of low social status to perform whiteness by voting, serving on juries, and mustering in the militia, the state welcomed every white man into symbolic equality with the Southern planter. Thus, law helped to constitute white men as citizens, and citizens as white men.^”

                                                                       END

Clay Austin of 3/25/2012

Clay,

Thanks so much.  I ordered the kit.

Here is what I have:

John Ellison Austin’s

Parents are: Ellison Woodrow Austin and Kathrine Bell

Grandparents are: Jacob Ellison Austin and Jennie Long

Great-grandparents are: Unknown Stultz man and Sara/Sallie Austin

2^nd ggparents are: William Austin and Lucinda Lloyd (parents of Sara/Sallie and of Joseph Calvin Austin, Sr.)

Your tree:

Grandparents: Joseph Calvin Austin, Sr. and Annie Purnell

Great-grandparents: William Austin and Lucinda Lloyd

So Sara/Sallie is a sister of your Joseph Calvin Sr.  She is the mother of Jacob Ellison Austin (not a sister to him), in all likelihood. Therefore Jacob Ellison was a nephew of Joseph Calvin Sr. instead of a brother.

This being correct that makes John Ellison Austin your 2^nd cousin once removed instead of your 2^nd cousin as was thought before John Ellison took the Y-DNA test last year.

Letter to clay again... 3/14/2012

Clay,

I have attached a PDF that was written by Alvy Ray Smith, a Fellow in the American Genealogical Society and a Riggs expert. He summarizes the need for additional Y-DNA samples to answer  the question “Who is the Riggs man who is the progenitor of the Austin family headed by Archibald Austin, Sr.?”  On the 2^nd page he points out the importance of obtaining the Y-DNA from a descendant of Arch Jr., brother of Clisbe Sr.  That man is you.

If you take the test and match the Edwardian Riggs Y-DNA model, then you will prove:

1.      Archibald Austin, Sr. is a Riggs, genetically.

2.      Clisbe Riggs is not the progenitor (as on page 2 of Alvy discussion) since he was 2 years old when Arch Sr. was born.

3.      Your Y-DNA will potentially answer the question of Edward Riggs’ being the progenitor.

 

If you take the test and match the Austin Y-DNA model (from Southside VA), then you will prove:

4.      Clisbe Austin, Sr. is not a son of Archibald Austin, Sr.

5.      Archibald Austin Sr. was likely a son of Joseph Austin of Southside VA.

If you take the test and match neither the Riggs nor the Austin model (as is the case of your cousin John), then you will prove:

6.      Another total surprise which will need to be explained.

7.      My luck is unbelievably bad… and I’ll be looking for another descendant of Archibald Austin, Jr. to answer my Riggs question.

Of course you know that I’m betting that you will turn out to be a Riggs, genetically. I’ve been wrong before. Wouldn’t mind being wrong again. Just would like very much to know the answer. I’ve been working on this puzzle for about 1-1/2 years now. My co-author of the story of Wealthy Pruett and a cousin of yours, Nancy Austin Fatheree, has been working on this with me constantly for the 1-1/2 years also. She wants the answer as badly as I do.

 I thought you might like the see the Y-DNA certificates of a couple of men mentioned in Alvy’s discussion. I have attached the certificates of Robert Carter Austin, Jr. and Horace Lester Riggs, III.

Is there any way for me to convince you to participate?

John Clinard

9 or 10, there is a difference

Here is the Clay connection which probably by-passes the problem with John Ellison Austin.  This will tell us about the markers for Arch Sr., if I can get him to donate his Y-DNA.  Got any persuasive words?

Clay⁷ Austin (Joseph C. Jr.⁶, Joseph C Sr.⁵, William⁴, Archibald Jr.³, Arch Sr.² Austin, Edward Riggs¹).  Clay may be either a 9 or 10 at marker 47. I’m convinced that if Clay is a 9, then Arch Sr. is a 9; and if a 10, then Arch Sr. is a 10.  Is this right?

This will tell us 9 or 10 at marker 47 for Arch Sr.  Help me out here, please.  This seems easy; but it’s not easy to me.

If Arch Sr. is a 9, as you expect, then will that indicate/prove that the mutation to 9 occurred in Arch Sr. prior to his having sons Clisbe Sr. and Arch Jr.? Or will it prove he is not a son of Edward, who is surely a 10? Or, is it really that we can’t differentiate between these two distinctly different possibilities? Are the probabilities of the two quite different?

If Arch Sr. is a 10, then what would be proven? Will that prove that the mutation to 9 occurred in Clisbe Sr. prior to his having children?... cause we know Clisbe Sr. is a 9.

____________
Alvy answer:
 

If Clay7 (using your nomenclature) has a 9 at marker 47, then almost certainly Arch2 Sr. does too.

If Clay7 has a 10 there then we just don’t know whether Arch2 Sr. has a 9 or a 10 and would have to say it that way. In that case, it would be POSSIBLE (but not proved) that the 10 came from Edward5 and was (I’m just hypothesizing here) the same 10 passed down to Horace and Roy. That’s consistent story, but unfortunately unproved. It just doesn’t DISPROVE it, which is good.

There is no reason for two sons to have exactly the same YDNA as the father. A mutation has to happen somewhere, typically in a procreative event.

Letter to CLAY of3/8/12

153 Chuniloti Way

Loudon, TN

March 8, 2012

Clay Austin

291 Tipton LN

Blountville, TN 37617

Dear Clay,

Thought you might not be seeing all your e-mail, so I’m sending this to you in USPS. I’m hoping you are still considering participating in the Austin-Riggs Y-DNA study. The e-mails I have attached explain, as best I can, why it is important to Austin-Riggs family members and to me that you become a Y-DNA donor. You are the answer, about the only one available, as far as I can determine, for answering the two questions:

Was Archibald Austin, Jr. genetically from the Austin family or the Riggs family?

Who is the father of Archibald Austin, Sr.?

Sincerely,

John Clinard    865-607-9191

SAVERS from the WEB

Large scale mitochondrial sequencing in Mexican Americans suggests a reappraisal of Native American origins

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3217880/


Russian Indians

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/01/120203-native-americans-siberia-genes-dna-science/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ng%2FNews%2FNews_Main+%28National+Geographic+News+-+Main%29

Get your Gnome mapped

http://thepersonalgenome.com/

23andme has an affordable test. Cute name, huh?  Since all we have are 23 chromosome pairs, 1 pair of sex chromosomes and 22 pairs of autosomal chromosomes called, autosomes.

Why Y-DNA?
http://originhunters.blogspot.com/2012/02/why-y-dna.html

Broken chain
http://originhunters.blogspot.com/2012/02/is-your-family-tree-is-broken.html?spref=fb

Humans are mixed-breed with neanderthal

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/31/science/gains-in-dna-are-speeding-research-into-human-origins.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1